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e-Support in Synopsys' VCS ?
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dieckmann
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:52 am    Post subject: e-Support in Synopsys' VCS ? Reply with quote

I heard from a colleague that Synopsys is claiming that they are supporting e natively within VCS. This is really great news since we believe e is the ideal verification language and with all of the talk these days about SystemVerilog, it is good to see that Cadence is the not the only vendor supporting e now.
Has anyone had a chance to try out e support in VCS?
Does anyone know how to get access to the version of VCS that supports e?
I suspect that Synopsys is working closely with some early beta customers before they roll this out to the rest of us.
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sarge
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard the same thing. Since my company has recently decided to adopt Synopsys, I'm going to give some code I have lying around a whirl and see what happens. Don't know what to expect, but anything is better than nothing.
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rader
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: e support in VCS Reply with quote

Can anyone confirm if this rumor is true or false ?

I would be very interested in finding out more details about exactly how much of "e" will be supported by Synopsys. I realize that e-code is now supposedly a "standard". But it would be great to really understand how much of our Cadence-based e-code environments would eventually be portable to Synopsys. Till now, with only Cadence supporting e-code, we have not had to worry too much about creating portable environments.

I am concerned about things which might not necessarily be viewed as part of the e-code "standard". To be honest, I have not had much reason to understand which parts of e-code are in the "standard" and which are Cadence unique additions. Sequences leap to mind for one thing.
Obviously existing Cadence eVC such as vr_ad would also present issues.
But, if we can figure out the differences, we can start tailoring new environments to make the eventual porting to Synopsys e-code easier.

Once we get e-code environments which can "easily" be ported to run on multiple vendors, we will no longer be strictly tied to one vendors flow vs another. Can you say "license negotiation leverage" ?
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Darren
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sequences are in the standard, or at least will be in the 2008 release. What won't be supported are calls to Specman specific features, such as trace facilities, or calls to other debug features. Most of the rest of it should be part of the standard language. Things such as vr_ad use the standard language so should be supported.
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drchip
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very interesting and potentially bad news for Mentor. I have heard a rumor that the next release of VCS will "support AVM 3.0". If VCS is also supporting e, this will allow only Cadence and Synopsys to fully support a mixed OVM/eRM environment - since most of eRM will probably be in OVM then Mentor will be left behind somewhat as Synopsys will be able to work with existing Cadence customers who've followed a URM flow. URM and OVM are probably more or less the same thing. Allowing customers to keep the e portions of their environment allows a less painful transition to OVM than would be the case. If questa, VCS and incisive all are capable of running AVM3.0 (and hence OVM) then questa will be at a disadvantage if it doesn't also support e, price and performance notwithstanding.

I guess another question is what will happen to VMM? Presumably Synopsys will abandon this - if OVM is open source and runs on all three simulators, there's no compelling reason to lock-up an environment into a proprietary solution. I guess, effectively, URM aka OVM will become the dominant methodology.

Dr Chip
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Logger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drchip wrote:
I guess another question is what will happen to VMM? Presumably Synopsys will abandon this - if OVM is open source and runs on all three simulators, there's no compelling reason to lock-up an environment into a proprietary solution.


I don't ever see that happening. Synopsys has been adding support for features left and right, and I would see this as yet another feature. Meaning VCS will work with whatever methodology you choose.

Janick is at Synopsys, and he is adding new layers of functionality on top of VMM to make it more powerful. I suspect VCS will support any methodology, but they will continue to promote and develop VMM if you ask them how to build your environment.

The other simulators will gain support for VMM in response. And while Synopsys has not open sourced their implementation, there is already the TrustIC version that runs on Questa. Synopsys also does have a licensing program that let's you run their VMM on other tools (if they support it).

I think we may be moving away from the language war and into the methodology war. Which means, as we saw with mixed-hdl, we'll be seeing solutions from the vendors which allow OVM and VMM components to work in the same environment.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything which moves towards standard e-support amongst multiple vendors is good by me. It also makes it far easier when a vendor comes in trying to convince us to use new tool. Rather than us asking about legacy code and the cost of translating it all, we can concentrate on the things which really matter such as features, cost, speed etc etc. It's no good trying to sell me the fastest tool on the planet if it can't simulate what I want and it takes me a year to transcribe everything so it can (and I lose my market window slot in the process)!
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akhan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: e-Support in Synopsys' VCS ? Reply with quote

Interesting! What version of VCS supports e? Does it support eRM? It would be interesting to see how a mixed code of VMM+eRM reacts Smile
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kev
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this makes me angry Shocked

Yet another way to do the same thing. I do not care for the language, just as long as there is a consensus over one.

Methodologies are not language specific. Arguing over VMM, OVM, eRM, AVM features is healthy and beneficial.

Arguing over the correct language to write them in and wasting time trying to get environments written in differing languages to talk to each other (with VIP adoption and legacy platforms) is neither.

Synopsys adopting e just muddies the water again (if this is actually true)

Kevin
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sarge
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no one 'correct' language for everything or everyone, which is why it IS beneficial when languages can talk to each other. Everyone can then code in whichever language they prefer, or are most proficient in, and then mix them together.

I believe Synopsys supporting/adopting e actually makes things clearer, in that one doesn't have to 'prove the superiority' of one language to the other now. You can use whichever one you feel more comfortable with to get the job done
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rader
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to disagree about the point that the language itself doesnt matter.
I agree you can do the same thing in multiple languages, but if one of those languages makes it very easy to do that task, while another language makes it more obscure, I will tend to favor the easier one.

If all languages are the same, and it is only a matter of methodology,
then why arent we all programming in assembly or hex.

The methodology and the language are more tightly coupled than that.
Sure any language will work, but will you hit the Time to Market window ?

These "which language discussions" always reminds me of the quote in perl
"A perl script is "correct" if it gets the job done before your boss fires you."

So a verification language is "correct" if we can get the thing verified before the schedule slides too far to the right.

personally I like more tools in the toolbox, and more the vendors supporting my toolbox, the better.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have heard (and this could make sense) it would be a large company (let's say IBM Exclamation ) who could get Synopsys to support e.

Maybe there is someone out there who can confirm this Smile ..... or maybe they won't Shocked.
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Boone
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synopsys signed a deal with Intel several months back, and Intel is a large e customer, so...

I still think it's silly to revive e or VERA. If we can all just focus on one testbench language, then perhaps the EDA vendors can focus their energies on a complete and quality implementation of one language.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not reviving e - it's recognising what is already there. Those of us who have many years investment in e infrastructure are not going to throw it all away and rewrite the lot SystemVerilog just because it is the newest way to do things - we have to be able to run and support legacy systems. It has already cost a lot of time and effort to write and debug the e-code, and we don't want to incur the same cost (or more) to do the same thing in SV just to get back to where we are today. By all means focus on getting one quality testbench language which we can all use, but I'm not so sure that SV is it yet...... Especially if most of your RTL is in VHDL and you need the added cost of dual-language simulators to run SV (so there goes the cost advantage of using "one" simulator to do both testbench and design simulation).

Note from the moderator: this topic was split to this topic.
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sarge
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, how dare we have more than one testbench language lying around! It's not like we have more than one RTL design language lying around....oops, or more than one programming language....oops, or more than one....awwww forget it.
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